“A 14-year-old boy was fatally stabbed outside of a school in the Bronx on Wednesday, and a boy of the same age has been taken into custody and charged with murder. The suspect, Noel Estevez…
You guys do great stories and I especially enjoy the commentary. However,
and this is more along the lines of a suggestion than a criticism, it would
be nice to have as many facts as possible on an emotionally charged story
like this. For instance, apparently Estevez has been getting bullied by a
GROUP of kids for three months prior to the incident. The victim, Timothy
Crump, was a friend of the perp on Facebook and was his friend in real
life. Crump had also been suspended from school for knocking a kid’s teeth
out earlier in the year. He was also black. On the day of the murder,
Estevez and Crump got into a fist fight and Crump got the better of him and
that’s when Estevez pulled out the knife and stabbed him several times in
the chest puncturing heart and lungs.
I do not know how this kid can claim “self defense” when he stabbed to
death another person who was only armed with his fists. NY is not a “stand
your ground” state where you can immediately resort to deadly force as soon
as you feel you are in eminent danger of serious bodily harm or death.
Rather, under NY law, if a person believes that another is threatening them
with eminent serious bodily harm or death, and they can safely escape the
danger by fleeing, the person is under an obligation to retreat BEFORE THEY
CAN RESORT TO DEADLY FORCE. Obviously if the attacker has a gun there is no
way you can safely retreat and therefore you could resort to deadly force
right away. Yet, as in this case, where the person only has their fist and
you are in an open public space you have a duty to retreat. This kid has
no case and should be convicted of 2nd degree murder.
One problem with the discussion they had about their bullying experiences –
sure it’s a pretty common thing and they didn’t develop serious issues from
it. But there are cases where it goes far beyond this, where people are
systematically destroyed over months and years before they attempt to take
their own life. Not justifying the kid in the story, just saying that what
cenk and the others experienced is a different level to the cases of
serious bullying.
There is one good answer: parents should have put the kid in some martial
arts/self defense classes! Especially Jiu Jitsu! That would have improved
the kids confidence and he could have defended himself! If it’s anyone’s
fault it’s the parents!
Thank you Dave Rubin for being one of the few genuine people to admit the
full truth. At some point, we were all bullied and at another point, we
were all the bully.
This incident shouldn’t be described as “self defense”. It’s more like
premeditated murder. The boy specifically brought the knife to school for
that day. That is murderous. Just because he had limited choices doesn’t
mean it’s not murder. Sad as it is, it’s deinetly not self-defense.
Best thing about this story, parents of kids that are bullies will take it
more serious. That nerdy kid your demon spawn is bullying could end your
little shits life.
Johnny Pie, he did not try the Police. That is an authority which, if he
constantly got death threats and these neighbors were witnesses to his
behavior and such, can handle the situation.
I’ll happily just bring a tazer to defend myself. Electricity only goes so
far to harm.
Besides, one of the kids was gonna end up dead, either from suicide or
murder.
One kid called me fat, over the summer I got in shape, got a girl friend,
then when I came back to school I look at him with my piercing eyes and he
looked super scared, honestly he was right to be scared I was way stronger
then him…
If he would have used a gun, this wouldn’t be a “difficult case” for TYT,
it would have been LOOK ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING!! Then they would have
talked about how horrible the 14 year old was.
Dan Savage is a horrible person (he’s transphobic and biphobic, and just
all around awful) and the only reason the it gets better campaign is so
famous is because its slogan essentially tells victims of bullying to wait
things out, and requires that no action actually be taken to prevent
bullying. It’s a glittering generality at best, and at worst a slogan that
makes it easy to be complacent with apathy.
This is what happens when one or both sets of parents are not paying
attention to their kids or the bureaucracies prevent the families from
taking appropriate action in a timely fashion.
I used to have bullies. Then I hit puberty. I grew from 5’6” to 6’2″ in
one summer, I also started taking mma classes. Needless to say, the bullies
disappeared Fast. I also started standing up for kids that were being
bullied.
hate bullies, they’re just as bad as rapist, psychopaths all of them.
I am can understand how kid would resort to violence to defend himself.
Some bullies become bigger bullies when they become adults and have serious
psychotic issues.
Kids can be really nasty, I was a kid and experienced bullying from a kid
that was 4 years my senior, the good thing is he was beaten up by another
group of kids who were in his class, for he tried to bully some of them as
well. It didn’t end up well for him, last thing I heard of that guy is that
he is in a prison for armed robbery serving minimum 20 years, ok this was
like some 15 years ago andI heard this from a third party for I moved out
of the area long time ago.
That being said, I hate bullies and wish them all the worst.
He stood his ground. Can’t we let him go just on that alone?
Considering all these stories out of florida with people picking fights or
shooting innocent homeless people for trespassing and getting off on Stand
Your Ground, can’t this kid claim the same? Or does he need a gun for it
to apply?
I hate to say it but I have no problem with this event, even if it is a
tragedy. If this person was in fact bullied to the degree described, to the
point of seeking help this plaintively and attempting suicide. and getting
no assistance or resolution from the adults involved…then this is
self-defense.
Cenk and John say you can’t kill someone, there is no possible
justification for killing another person etc…this is obviously the
reasonable position, but it is not the realistic one. Firstly, people who
cross the lines established in civilized society, remove themselves from
it’s protections. Second, a 14 year old may still be a child, but they are
closer to being an adult than a child…obviously some at this age are more
capable of reasoning than others, but we tend to coddle children in such
contexts more than I think is wise or justified. Lastly, killing is
horrible, of course, and a last resort…but there are things worse than
death, and some bullying is the equivalent of torture, and you would not
condemn someone who broke free and killed their torturer…
I doubt Noel intended to kill his bully. But once you put someone in the
physical and psychological space where they feel they are forced to arm
themselves to defend their person…things must be evaluated in that
context. If anything, the lesson here should be that bullying is something
that society permits and takes too lightly, as clearly all of the adults in
this situation apparently did.
Cenk, violence can be an extremely effective approach. Violence against the
British Empire helped free the American colonies. Violence can save your
loved ones when a criminal breaks into your home. Violence is intelligence
when you must defend yourself from attackers and tyrants, as Malcolm X once
said. If the facts of this case are true, then that boy will be absolved of
the murder. And when kids are out of control, you have to regulate on kids.
Be the adult! Regulate!
parents are too soft with kids these days, thats why they think they can do
whatever they want. The parents of these kids should have come together to
solve the problem before it got to this.
Here in The Bronx, It’s either Fight or Flight. God help you if you live in
the same hood with your bully (ies). The only repellent is to have your own
Squad/ Posse To help you or KNOW someone in your hood who has sway with all
the knuckleheads in the area to talk to them about leaving you alone.
The bully purposefully tormented the boy to a degree where his mindset was
severely altered. Extreme paranoia and fear. This was compounded by the
lack of action by the relevant authorities. The bully contributed to their
own predicament and suffered a consequence. That doesn’t make it right. I’m
sure the bully had their own personal issues which lead to their bullying
behaviour.
I was a bully when I was in school. It was fun. But I never made anyone
scared for their life. I was very responsible with my bullying. It was fun
just to clench my fist and give them the stare down. I’d get the little
wimps in a head lock every now and then and make them and trip them in the
cafeteria while they;re carrying their lunch tray and everyone would laugh
at them. Yeah, it was fun. But I blame them and their parents for not
manning up and becoming tough. It’s their fault. Man up! Stop being a wimp.
I feel alot of sympathy for the kid here, I’ve also been in that spot where
it felt like the only way out of it was either killing myself or the bully
as I had tried everything and nobody gave a shit, even when he on several
occasions broke my window in the middle of the night the cops just
dismissed it due to lack of evidence.
Hopefully they’ll go easy on him, he probably never wanted to kill someone,
he just wanted the mental torture to stop and this was the only solution he
thought he left.
Well legally you can’t let people stab each other under any circumstances,
so there should be some sort of punishment. But morally? Eh, it is what it
is, it’s important that bullies know that there are consequences to their
actions. In fact this would be even better if this happened all the time
for that reason. Life isn’t at all sacred, many people just aren’t worth
shedding a tear over, they detract from the world and it benefits us all if
they leave it. Even kids, because they grow up and take those attitudes
into the adult world too. I agree with that comment that a severe beating
would be more appropriate, but this works. It’s sad that people go through
the issues that they do to become bullies in the first place, but that’s
nobody else’ fault except their parents, who will hopefully get a good
lesson out of it.
Also, I know people like to equate verbal bullying with physical bullying.
They’re not the same at all. Bullies in the adult world go to jail. You
wouldn’t go to work and have someone pushing you around in the office, and
if someone punched you at a bar, you could press charges on them. So the
idea of “what goes on in the adult world” is lost on me.
frankly, the bully needed something, he wasn’t getting it at home, at
school, or anywhere else, a good ‘ol ass kicking would have done everyone a
lot of good. taking a knife to a fist fight is a bit in the wrong direction
though.
American kids grow up in a culture that encourages segregation of weak kids
and strong, your media celebrates this with the labels “jock” and “nerd”
and thinks its quite funny. Its not. Only you do this, its weird and
disturbing.
I didn’t grow up in an urban area, but I had my fair share of bullying and
beatings in school. Nothing my parents or the school admins did made it
better, so one day I jumped the bully and broke his nose. It worked, people
stopped fucking with me, but in this day and age, you couldn’t do it.
I’ll bet money the kid was told many times by adults “You kind of bring it
on yourself” (I have no proof of this, and have heard no such quote.) Well
I’ll play “devils advocate” here and assume the kid’s story is 100% true..
So my feeling… I have to say to the bully. “You brought it on yourself”.
When I jumped across a desk and almost choked my 7th grade (well one of
many) bully to death I was suspended from school. After hearing for almost
a whole school year “You kind of bring it on yourself.” The bully got no
punishment for anything ever… So if the kid’s story is true… well I
don’t actually have hardly any empathy at all for the bully. Yeah the kid
was wrong, but assuming his story is 100% true, he was a very frightened
very traumatized child who was clearly not being helped and may have felt
no other option quite possibly out of fear for his own life.
Remember this is highly speculative on my part, and is largely based on
personal experience of extreme bullying of the type that causes a person to
attempt suicide.
Were they seriously trying to advocate / defend bullying at the end there?
Making a comparison from adult struggles and childhood bullying? Seriously??
I was heavily bullied throughout school and not once do I remember bullying
someone else and yet I have no problem defending and standing up for myself
now as an adult. You don’t need to be bullied, or be a bully to learn to
handle it. I didn’t know how to handle it back then, I learned after not
being bullied for a while.
Not only that, but do they understand the mental damage bullying can do to
a child that doesn’t enjoy fighting like Cenk does? Yes, constant bullying
can and does drive children to the brink of suicide, there’s no
justification for it and quite honestly, you’re a massive douchebag for
even trying to justify bullying.
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You guys do great stories and I especially enjoy the commentary. However,
and this is more along the lines of a suggestion than a criticism, it would
be nice to have as many facts as possible on an emotionally charged story
like this. For instance, apparently Estevez has been getting bullied by a
GROUP of kids for three months prior to the incident. The victim, Timothy
Crump, was a friend of the perp on Facebook and was his friend in real
life. Crump had also been suspended from school for knocking a kid’s teeth
out earlier in the year. He was also black. On the day of the murder,
Estevez and Crump got into a fist fight and Crump got the better of him and
that’s when Estevez pulled out the knife and stabbed him several times in
the chest puncturing heart and lungs.
he should have just beat the shit out of his bully instead.
good for the kid being bullied all bullies need to be delt with in the same
way
I do not know how this kid can claim “self defense” when he stabbed to
death another person who was only armed with his fists. NY is not a “stand
your ground” state where you can immediately resort to deadly force as soon
as you feel you are in eminent danger of serious bodily harm or death.
Rather, under NY law, if a person believes that another is threatening them
with eminent serious bodily harm or death, and they can safely escape the
danger by fleeing, the person is under an obligation to retreat BEFORE THEY
CAN RESORT TO DEADLY FORCE. Obviously if the attacker has a gun there is no
way you can safely retreat and therefore you could resort to deadly force
right away. Yet, as in this case, where the person only has their fist and
you are in an open public space you have a duty to retreat. This kid has
no case and should be convicted of 2nd degree murder.
One problem with the discussion they had about their bullying experiences –
sure it’s a pretty common thing and they didn’t develop serious issues from
it. But there are cases where it goes far beyond this, where people are
systematically destroyed over months and years before they attempt to take
their own life. Not justifying the kid in the story, just saying that what
cenk and the others experienced is a different level to the cases of
serious bullying.
“…can’t justify this…”
Yeah you can. Like, if you’re being relentlessly bullied. Totally justified.
Bullies SHOULD be stabbed. They’re evil pukes. Fuck ’em.
This is sad. Even bullies don’t deserve to die at that age.
There is one good answer: parents should have put the kid in some martial
arts/self defense classes! Especially Jiu Jitsu! That would have improved
the kids confidence and he could have defended himself! If it’s anyone’s
fault it’s the parents!
Thank you Dave Rubin for being one of the few genuine people to admit the
full truth. At some point, we were all bullied and at another point, we
were all the bully.
Wow, liberals used the word ‘bullying’ in the right context for once! None
of that cyber or verbal bullshit.
I had a knife pulled on me once, but luckily he only stabbed his other arm
and no charges were pressed
This incident shouldn’t be described as “self defense”. It’s more like
premeditated murder. The boy specifically brought the knife to school for
that day. That is murderous. Just because he had limited choices doesn’t
mean it’s not murder. Sad as it is, it’s deinetly not self-defense.
Good job Timmy, you did the world a favour.
Best thing about this story, parents of kids that are bullies will take it
more serious. That nerdy kid your demon spawn is bullying could end your
little shits life.
Take it serious.
Look at the silver lining. Atleast he isn’t going to be bullied any more.
Lolz
Johnny Pie, he did not try the Police. That is an authority which, if he
constantly got death threats and these neighbors were witnesses to his
behavior and such, can handle the situation.
I’ll happily just bring a tazer to defend myself. Electricity only goes so
far to harm.
Besides, one of the kids was gonna end up dead, either from suicide or
murder.
This is why all my kids are learning a martial art such as boxing when I
have them.
One kid called me fat, over the summer I got in shape, got a girl friend,
then when I came back to school I look at him with my piercing eyes and he
looked super scared, honestly he was right to be scared I was way stronger
then him…
This Doesn’t sound like self defense. It sounds like revenge.
If he would have used a gun, this wouldn’t be a “difficult case” for TYT,
it would have been LOOK ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING!! Then they would have
talked about how horrible the 14 year old was.
Dan Savage is a horrible person (he’s transphobic and biphobic, and just
all around awful) and the only reason the it gets better campaign is so
famous is because its slogan essentially tells victims of bullying to wait
things out, and requires that no action actually be taken to prevent
bullying. It’s a glittering generality at best, and at worst a slogan that
makes it easy to be complacent with apathy.
ban knives.
This is what happens when one or both sets of parents are not paying
attention to their kids or the bureaucracies prevent the families from
taking appropriate action in a timely fashion.
why bullying doesnt exist in my country?
I used to have bullies. Then I hit puberty. I grew from 5’6” to 6’2″ in
one summer, I also started taking mma classes. Needless to say, the bullies
disappeared Fast. I also started standing up for kids that were being
bullied.
hate bullies, they’re just as bad as rapist, psychopaths all of them.
I am can understand how kid would resort to violence to defend himself.
Some bullies become bigger bullies when they become adults and have serious
psychotic issues.
Kids can be really nasty, I was a kid and experienced bullying from a kid
that was 4 years my senior, the good thing is he was beaten up by another
group of kids who were in his class, for he tried to bully some of them as
well. It didn’t end up well for him, last thing I heard of that guy is that
he is in a prison for armed robbery serving minimum 20 years, ok this was
like some 15 years ago andI heard this from a third party for I moved out
of the area long time ago.
That being said, I hate bullies and wish them all the worst.
He stood his ground. Can’t we let him go just on that alone?
Considering all these stories out of florida with people picking fights or
shooting innocent homeless people for trespassing and getting off on Stand
Your Ground, can’t this kid claim the same? Or does he need a gun for it
to apply?
I hate to say it but I have no problem with this event, even if it is a
tragedy. If this person was in fact bullied to the degree described, to the
point of seeking help this plaintively and attempting suicide. and getting
no assistance or resolution from the adults involved…then this is
self-defense.
Cenk and John say you can’t kill someone, there is no possible
justification for killing another person etc…this is obviously the
reasonable position, but it is not the realistic one. Firstly, people who
cross the lines established in civilized society, remove themselves from
it’s protections. Second, a 14 year old may still be a child, but they are
closer to being an adult than a child…obviously some at this age are more
capable of reasoning than others, but we tend to coddle children in such
contexts more than I think is wise or justified. Lastly, killing is
horrible, of course, and a last resort…but there are things worse than
death, and some bullying is the equivalent of torture, and you would not
condemn someone who broke free and killed their torturer…
I doubt Noel intended to kill his bully. But once you put someone in the
physical and psychological space where they feel they are forced to arm
themselves to defend their person…things must be evaluated in that
context. If anything, the lesson here should be that bullying is something
that society permits and takes too lightly, as clearly all of the adults in
this situation apparently did.
Cenk, violence can be an extremely effective approach. Violence against the
British Empire helped free the American colonies. Violence can save your
loved ones when a criminal breaks into your home. Violence is intelligence
when you must defend yourself from attackers and tyrants, as Malcolm X once
said. If the facts of this case are true, then that boy will be absolved of
the murder. And when kids are out of control, you have to regulate on kids.
Be the adult! Regulate!
parents are too soft with kids these days, thats why they think they can do
whatever they want. The parents of these kids should have come together to
solve the problem before it got to this.
Here in The Bronx, It’s either Fight or Flight. God help you if you live in
the same hood with your bully (ies). The only repellent is to have your own
Squad/ Posse To help you or KNOW someone in your hood who has sway with all
the knuckleheads in the area to talk to them about leaving you alone.
Life is Complicated Man.
I wonder if kids are just getting softer and thinner skinned.
“Home-owner Fatally Shoots His Intruder In Self Defense” would never be
seen on TYT. Seems hypocritical of you.
The bully purposefully tormented the boy to a degree where his mindset was
severely altered. Extreme paranoia and fear. This was compounded by the
lack of action by the relevant authorities. The bully contributed to their
own predicament and suffered a consequence. That doesn’t make it right. I’m
sure the bully had their own personal issues which lead to their bullying
behaviour.
Where the hell is Anna ?
I was a bully when I was in school. It was fun. But I never made anyone
scared for their life. I was very responsible with my bullying. It was fun
just to clench my fist and give them the stare down. I’d get the little
wimps in a head lock every now and then and make them and trip them in the
cafeteria while they;re carrying their lunch tray and everyone would laugh
at them. Yeah, it was fun. But I blame them and their parents for not
manning up and becoming tough. It’s their fault. Man up! Stop being a wimp.
I feel alot of sympathy for the kid here, I’ve also been in that spot where
it felt like the only way out of it was either killing myself or the bully
as I had tried everything and nobody gave a shit, even when he on several
occasions broke my window in the middle of the night the cops just
dismissed it due to lack of evidence.
Hopefully they’ll go easy on him, he probably never wanted to kill someone,
he just wanted the mental torture to stop and this was the only solution he
thought he left.
Well legally you can’t let people stab each other under any circumstances,
so there should be some sort of punishment. But morally? Eh, it is what it
is, it’s important that bullies know that there are consequences to their
actions. In fact this would be even better if this happened all the time
for that reason. Life isn’t at all sacred, many people just aren’t worth
shedding a tear over, they detract from the world and it benefits us all if
they leave it. Even kids, because they grow up and take those attitudes
into the adult world too. I agree with that comment that a severe beating
would be more appropriate, but this works. It’s sad that people go through
the issues that they do to become bullies in the first place, but that’s
nobody else’ fault except their parents, who will hopefully get a good
lesson out of it.
Also, I know people like to equate verbal bullying with physical bullying.
They’re not the same at all. Bullies in the adult world go to jail. You
wouldn’t go to work and have someone pushing you around in the office, and
if someone punched you at a bar, you could press charges on them. So the
idea of “what goes on in the adult world” is lost on me.
Noel is the boy who stabbed the bully.
frankly, the bully needed something, he wasn’t getting it at home, at
school, or anywhere else, a good ‘ol ass kicking would have done everyone a
lot of good. taking a knife to a fist fight is a bit in the wrong direction
though.
American kids grow up in a culture that encourages segregation of weak kids
and strong, your media celebrates this with the labels “jock” and “nerd”
and thinks its quite funny. Its not. Only you do this, its weird and
disturbing.
I didn’t grow up in an urban area, but I had my fair share of bullying and
beatings in school. Nothing my parents or the school admins did made it
better, so one day I jumped the bully and broke his nose. It worked, people
stopped fucking with me, but in this day and age, you couldn’t do it.
I’ll bet money the kid was told many times by adults “You kind of bring it
on yourself” (I have no proof of this, and have heard no such quote.) Well
I’ll play “devils advocate” here and assume the kid’s story is 100% true..
So my feeling… I have to say to the bully. “You brought it on yourself”.
When I jumped across a desk and almost choked my 7th grade (well one of
many) bully to death I was suspended from school. After hearing for almost
a whole school year “You kind of bring it on yourself.” The bully got no
punishment for anything ever… So if the kid’s story is true… well I
don’t actually have hardly any empathy at all for the bully. Yeah the kid
was wrong, but assuming his story is 100% true, he was a very frightened
very traumatized child who was clearly not being helped and may have felt
no other option quite possibly out of fear for his own life.
Remember this is highly speculative on my part, and is largely based on
personal experience of extreme bullying of the type that causes a person to
attempt suicide.
Were they seriously trying to advocate / defend bullying at the end there?
Making a comparison from adult struggles and childhood bullying? Seriously??
I was heavily bullied throughout school and not once do I remember bullying
someone else and yet I have no problem defending and standing up for myself
now as an adult. You don’t need to be bullied, or be a bully to learn to
handle it. I didn’t know how to handle it back then, I learned after not
being bullied for a while.
Not only that, but do they understand the mental damage bullying can do to
a child that doesn’t enjoy fighting like Cenk does? Yes, constant bullying
can and does drive children to the brink of suicide, there’s no
justification for it and quite honestly, you’re a massive douchebag for
even trying to justify bullying.
Fuck you, seriously.
This is not defense… He went straight to the bully without the bully
going to him first …