Sport vs Self Defense BJJ, Is There Really a Difference?
The debate between ‘sport’ and ‘self defense’ BJJ has been overblown because good jiu-jitsu is always better than bad jiu-jitsu. If your focus is on self defense then find the best BJJ school you can and, if necessary, supplement that training with a little bit of boxing, kickboxing or MMA training to become comfortable in the striking zone rather than going to a lesser school that claims to teach special ‘self defense’ BJJ techniques. The magic is all in the training against resistance and dealing with pressure, and it is much easier to adjust technique on the fly than it is to suddenly develop the capacity to deal with someone who is using all their strength, energy and willpower to crush you!
Stephan Kesting
Stephan, you have put out some good content. You were wrong to dismiss the overhead knife defense. In close-quarters knife combat, wrist control is primary concern. In order to further stabilize the attacker, a figure four armlock is the ultimate in neutralizing the hand of the attacker. The fact that it comes from overhead is negligible. A drill like that works for a knife thrust from any direction. This may not apply to civilians in their everyday life, but military and law enforcement find techniques like that very valuable in close quarters combat situations. You may never see it, and you are lucky. Cheers, thanks for the vids.
The problem with Japanese/Traditional JJ, is that there's really no way to do sparing, with a lot of the techniques your being thought (like the wrist lock). At least without doing serious harm to your partner. Before I started JJJ, I trained Muay Thai/MMA. I really do miss the sparing and the effectiveness of the techniques under pressure is something I think a lot about. But its kinda like a chicken and egg problem, you cant both attempt to break the wrist of your sparring partners and be gentle with him. It's the reason these things got removed of BBJ.
I agree with u in almost everything u said ( gracies just try to take our money with their 36 tecniques and then giving away fake blue belts) .But man, I m sure a judo guy can throw someone with an o goshi and then juji gatame and choke him out in a street fight or mma ( just exactly as ronda did it in the begining of her carreer)
Remember something. While jiu jitsu was developed in Brazil, helio would pay tough guys to fight his students. And there's a very important detail: they wouldn't always win. Some times they would lose, and from that point on technique had to be revised.
That's why jiu jitsu is so efficient. That's how it was built. And now stephan is saying those moves don't work. Unbelievable
For real fighting train at a gym with an active mma fight team. Bjj for mma is different. If your gym doesnt have fighters or atleast activly spar then your bjj will end up wartered down sport crap.
I know that in a street fight if I put Joao Miyao in a head lock I'm a dead man. The problem is not everybody is Joao Miyao. What about that weak and slow learner guy? If you don't teach him specifically how to get out of there he will not have tools for that situation.
So if this guy goes to a sport jiu jitsu academy he learns de la riva Guard the first day but never learns how to get out of a head lock. Absurd. Self defense should be mandatory and sport the next fase.
First line of self defense is good posture, athletic build and an air of self confidence. You get those from sport jiu jitsu. You will have a more muscular build than you otherwise would and unless you are wearing a parka, that will show. When somebody begins to threaten you, you are much less likely to panic and that will be noted ( in most cases ). I think that in many case, a "victimizer" will move on to easier prey.
If the action begins, you will likely be stronger, in better shape generally and you will be able to do the things you want to do with efficiency. You will be less panicked and won't gas because of that. As long as you have your "basic" game worked out and have thought about mixing in strikes, you should be OK. I usually play bottom ( geezer here ) but when I do play top they guys complain about the pressure so I know I am good for the street. Biting is the one thing I would be concerned about and need to correct for.
I do have a pal who is a slick toreando type who will murder you on points but never threaten a sub and he happened to have a fight with a druggy that was caught on his own house camera. He did struggle because of the over specialized nature of his game and his unwillingness to just consolidate side. He will typically pass your guard like a knife through butter and then disengage so he can do it again. He took the guys back and handled the situation but it could have been a lot easier. He didn't sink a choke or strike and the guy was out of control. My pal just ended up with banged up knees and elbows from the concrete.
I agree with what you said basically 100%, and I mostly see myself as self defense based. BJJ will work in a self defense situation pretty well as taught in most good BJJ schools since the basis of BJJ is real fighting. The one caveat I have with sport BJJ is that it tends to ignore some realities of real fighting and that can build false expectations and blind spots IF you don't learn to include some more realistic training as well (as you pointed out). In either case, well trained with BJJ will always beat poorly trained in anything else, whether in a real fight or not. At a higher level, if you wish to go into more MMA style fighting, BJJ is a great base to start from.
And 1 final note, are you honestly suggesting that hip throws don't work in a real fight/mma? Stephan I'm a big fan but it's starting to sound like you've lost the plot. Guys watching this and believing him, Look up judo in mma they do work.
Sorry Stephan but I just can't understand your point here. Self defense jiu jitsu aka real jiu jitsu is taught with the consideration that real fights are chaotic and you must be ready for anything. Sport jiu jitsu teaches and trains techniques albeit under pressure which do not consider a fight where there are no rules. Even the mount escapes taught in sport completely ignore the possibility of being struck and don't get me started with people who instinctively turtle! My academy would have an mma class and the professor would tell everyone to stay for it so they could learn what works in a real fight because most of the sport stuff won't.
I don't argue most sport jiu jitsu guys would win a street fight. The problem for me is that most of those guys are athletic and strong. Helio wasn't. They way jiu jitsu is teach by Helio sons works even if you are a weak guy and slow learner. I've been in both worlds and the difference is huge.
I have been training for 20 years now. There is a huge difference. If that wasn’t the case Marcelo Garcia and all the other bjj guys would rule mma, they all got their ass kicked 😆 by no name fighters in mma
Hi Stephan! So I was wondering, in a self defense situation (let's assume you have to fight a single person and can't flee), what would be your go-to standup game? Should I just feel out the rhythm of the guy or should I just shoot a single/double, try to establish back control standing etc. right away? Presuming I'm going to mainly grapple instead of punch/kick. I really like your videos and this one especially shed some light on a very important topic that get's discussed a lot without there almost ever being a consensus. Also would you consider yourself to be from the "sport" or the "combative/self defense" backround. Cheers!
The club where I learned judo was an absolute bear pit full of excellent judoka. Self defence or goshin jitsu was never practiced. Only nagekomi uchikomi and hard randori both on the ground and standing. Most of the Dan grades who trained there were bouncers. Hard club judo was more than enough for these guys to do their jobs. Away from the club we'd occasionally get the gloves on and hit the heavy bag, the pads and do a bit sparring.
No preset self defence stuff ever. A lot of people who prefer the self defence angle like the idea of fighting without wanting to fight. Learning to keep fighting with stars in your eyes after you've been smashed with a big uchimata or seoi is good for self defence.
The techniques of judo and bjj are the teeth but its randori or hard sparring that gives it the bite. And it's the bite that makes self defence work.
I've used a standing figure 4 on a crazy drunk vet, fresh from combat, with a knife in one hand and his girlfriend throat in the other.
However this allowed me to get him from behind. I did not have the lock perfect so i stayed hip to hip, back up back, circling hard, violently jacking him around. I looked for a wall to pin him on but we where in open space.
It ended like every video of a real disarm I've ever seen. Sloppy, and when a friend grabbed him preventing escape i tightened the lock so much his bones could shatter.
I like figure 4's for disarms. But it's not a movie. You gotta keep moving. You gotta jerk joints to the point of permanate damage. And like cops, you need help.
Oh Stephan… but my grandmaster sensei says our techniques are way to deadly and dangerous for sports! Thats why no one of us is allowed to compete or to do sparring in training, because we train to protect and not to damage! 🙂 My Sensei even once had a street fight against Rousimar Paul Harris, which he won easily because Paul Harris didn´t know how to protect against eye-jabs and wasn´t prepared to be slammed on his head (illegal techniques). Unfortunately Rousimar has taken some serious brain damage from this slam and isn´t able to recognize tap outs and has forgotten everything besides leglocks since this day 🙁
){kind=link}
){kind=link}
Stephan, you have put out some good content. You were wrong to dismiss the overhead knife defense. In close-quarters knife combat, wrist control is primary concern. In order to further stabilize the attacker, a figure four armlock is the ultimate in neutralizing the hand of the attacker. The fact that it comes from overhead is negligible. A drill like that works for a knife thrust from any direction. This may not apply to civilians in their everyday life, but military and law enforcement find techniques like that very valuable in close quarters combat situations. You may never see it, and you are lucky. Cheers, thanks for the vids.
The problem with Japanese/Traditional JJ, is that there's really no way to do sparing, with a lot of the techniques your being thought (like the wrist lock). At least without doing serious harm to your partner. Before I started JJJ, I trained Muay Thai/MMA. I really do miss the sparing and the effectiveness of the techniques under pressure is something I think a lot about. But its kinda like a chicken and egg problem, you cant both attempt to break the wrist of your sparring partners and be gentle with him. It's the reason these things got removed of BBJ.
I agree with u in almost everything u said ( gracies just try to take our money with their 36 tecniques and then giving away fake blue belts) .But man, I m sure a judo guy can throw someone with an o goshi and then juji gatame and choke him out in a street fight or mma ( just exactly as ronda did it in the begining of her carreer)
Here’s a video of Relson with a hip toss variation, mount – ground and pound, then armbar to finish. https://youtu.be/6pBjwVBVLTg
Remember something. While jiu jitsu was developed in Brazil, helio would pay tough guys to fight his students. And there's a very important detail: they wouldn't always win. Some times they would lose, and from that point on technique had to be revised.
That's why jiu jitsu is so efficient. That's how it was built. And now stephan is saying those moves don't work. Unbelievable
Hip throw doesn't work? Uchi mata is way more difficult to achieve and it is used in mma.
For real fighting train at a gym with an active mma fight team. Bjj for mma is different. If your gym doesnt have fighters or atleast activly spar then your bjj will end up wartered down sport crap.
I mean you could say Ronda Rousey did apply hip throw to armbar effectively. She did train with the Gracies
I know that in a street fight if I put Joao Miyao in a head lock I'm a dead man. The problem is not everybody is Joao Miyao. What about that weak and slow learner guy? If you don't teach him specifically how to get out of there he will not have tools for that situation.
So if this guy goes to a sport jiu jitsu academy he learns de la riva Guard the first day but never learns how to get out of a head lock. Absurd. Self defense should be mandatory and sport the next fase.
First line of self defense is good posture, athletic build and an air of self confidence. You get those from sport jiu jitsu. You will have a more muscular build than you otherwise would and unless you are wearing a parka, that will show. When somebody begins to threaten you, you are much less likely to panic and that will be noted ( in most cases ). I think that in many case, a "victimizer" will move on to easier prey.
If the action begins, you will likely be stronger, in better shape generally and you will be able to do the things you want to do with efficiency. You will be less panicked and won't gas because of that. As long as you have your "basic" game worked out and have thought about mixing in strikes, you should be OK. I usually play bottom ( geezer here ) but when I do play top they guys complain about the pressure so I know I am good for the street. Biting is the one thing I would be concerned about and need to correct for.
I do have a pal who is a slick toreando type who will murder you on points but never threaten a sub and he happened to have a fight with a druggy that was caught on his own house camera. He did struggle because of the over specialized nature of his game and his unwillingness to just consolidate side. He will typically pass your guard like a knife through butter and then disengage so he can do it again. He took the guys back and handled the situation but it could have been a lot easier. He didn't sink a choke or strike and the guy was out of control. My pal just ended up with banged up knees and elbows from the concrete.
Sports BJJ guys have never been punched in the head
Lets see how big of a straw man we can build and then talk about it for the entire video. Very disappointing.
I agree with what you said basically 100%, and I mostly see myself as self defense based. BJJ will work in a self defense situation pretty well as taught in most good BJJ schools since the basis of BJJ is real fighting. The one caveat I have with sport BJJ is that it tends to ignore some realities of real fighting and that can build false expectations and blind spots IF you don't learn to include some more realistic training as well (as you pointed out). In either case, well trained with BJJ will always beat poorly trained in anything else, whether in a real fight or not. At a higher level, if you wish to go into more MMA style fighting, BJJ is a great base to start from.
And 1 final note, are you honestly suggesting that hip throws don't work in a real fight/mma? Stephan I'm a big fan but it's starting to sound like you've lost the plot. Guys watching this and believing him, Look up judo in mma they do work.
Sorry Stephan but I just can't understand your point here. Self defense jiu jitsu aka real jiu jitsu is taught with the consideration that real fights are chaotic and you must be ready for anything. Sport jiu jitsu teaches and trains techniques albeit under pressure which do not consider a fight where there are no rules. Even the mount escapes taught in sport completely ignore the possibility of being struck and don't get me started with people who instinctively turtle! My academy would have an mma class and the professor would tell everyone to stay for it so they could learn what works in a real fight because most of the sport stuff won't.
Balanced perspective – thanks!
You been wearing a ski mask or something?? Lol
Please see this rickson video parts 3 and 4. You'll see how the sport guy is totally lost https://youtu.be/DbtIPkyGm4g
Josh barnett said the other day that sparring always starting from your knees is a waste of time. How many academies never practice throwing?
I don't argue most sport jiu jitsu guys would win a street fight. The problem for me is that most of those guys are athletic and strong. Helio wasn't. They way jiu jitsu is teach by Helio sons works even if you are a weak guy and slow learner. I've been in both worlds and the difference is huge.
How many of these techniques are teach in sport jiu jitsu? https://youtu.be/CJQHfoGQlxI you should go to valente brothers before having an opinion
I have been training for 20 years now. There is a huge difference. If that wasn’t the case Marcelo Garcia and all the other bjj guys would rule mma, they all got their ass kicked 😆 by no name fighters in mma
Hi Stephan!
So I was wondering, in a self defense situation (let's assume you have to fight a single person and can't flee), what would be your go-to standup game? Should I just feel out the rhythm of the guy or should I just shoot a single/double, try to establish back control standing etc. right away? Presuming I'm going to mainly grapple instead of punch/kick. I really like your videos and this one especially shed some light on a very important topic that get's discussed a lot without there almost ever being a consensus. Also would you consider yourself to be from the "sport" or the "combative/self defense" backround.
Cheers!
How would someone who is just beginning BJJ supposed to know what is a good/bad jiu jitsu school?
PS agree with some of the self defence stand up that is being shown
The club where I learned judo was an absolute bear pit full of excellent judoka. Self defence or goshin jitsu was never practiced. Only nagekomi uchikomi and hard randori both on the ground and standing. Most of the Dan grades who trained there were bouncers. Hard club judo was more than enough for these guys to do their jobs.
Away from the club we'd occasionally get the gloves on and hit the heavy bag, the pads and do a bit sparring.
No preset self defence stuff ever.
A lot of people who prefer the self defence angle like the idea of fighting without wanting to fight. Learning to keep fighting with stars in your eyes after you've been smashed with a big uchimata or seoi is good for self defence.
The techniques of judo and bjj are the teeth but its randori or hard sparring that gives it the bite. And it's the bite that makes self defence work.
I've used a standing figure 4 on a crazy drunk vet, fresh from combat, with a knife in one hand and his girlfriend throat in the other.
However this allowed me to get him from behind. I did not have the lock perfect so i stayed hip to hip, back up back, circling hard, violently jacking him around. I looked for a wall to pin him on but we where in open space.
It ended like every video of a real disarm I've ever seen. Sloppy, and when a friend grabbed him preventing escape i tightened the lock so much his bones could shatter.
I like figure 4's for disarms. But it's not a movie. You gotta keep moving. You gotta jerk joints to the point of permanate damage. And like cops, you need help.
Oh Stephan… but my grandmaster sensei says our techniques are way to deadly and dangerous for sports! Thats why no one of us is allowed to compete or to do sparring in training, because we train to protect and not to damage! 🙂 My Sensei even once had a street fight against Rousimar Paul Harris, which he won easily because Paul Harris didn´t know how to protect against eye-jabs and wasn´t prepared to be slammed on his head (illegal techniques). Unfortunately Rousimar has taken some serious brain damage from this slam and isn´t able to recognize tap outs and has forgotten everything besides leglocks since this day 🙁